EDFix: Environmental Defense Fund's Innovation Exchange

EDFix 2009-11-18 Skype call chat transcript

[8:36:30 AM] *** Jerry Michalski | SF added Peter Johnson-Lenz ***

[8:36:35 AM] itrouble: we were for a minute anyway. (audio)

[8:46:55 AM] *** Jerry Michalski | SF added evanwolf ***

[8:47:59 AM] Jerry Michalski | SF: collecting up participants for the call here...

[8:48:26 AM] magic.primate: here

[8:48:45 AM] itrouble: there

[8:50:00 AM] Jerry Michalski | SF: yay

[8:50:36 AM] Peter Johnson-Lenz: use this chat?

[8:50:45 AM] *** Jerry Michalski | SF added Trudy Johnson-Lenz ***

[8:51:05 AM] *** Jerry Michalski | SF added synergems ***

[8:51:12 AM] Jerry Michalski | SF: howdy, all

[8:51:22 AM] Trudy Johnson-Lenz: howdy,

[8:51:27 AM] Trudy Johnson-Lenz: dangling comma

[8:51:40 AM] Jerry Michalski | SF: hey, dangling comma

[8:51:51 AM] itrouble: hi

[8:52:03 AM] Trudy Johnson-Lenz: hey judi! great to "see" you!

[8:52:13 AM] Peter Johnson-Lenz: hello everyone

[8:52:21 AM] J Clark: indeed

[8:52:25 AM] David Hodgson: hello

[8:52:27 AM] Jerry Michalski | SF: ooo, everyone's scribbling

[8:52:30 AM | Edited by J Clark, 8:53:08 AM] Phil Wolff: trudy, did you know you can edit your chats for up to an hour? right-mouse click or option-click to edit. or in some versions of skype an Up arrow will open the previous message.

[8:52:40 AM | Edited by J Clark, 8:53:24 AM] Peter Johnson-Lenz: this is a little bit like bumping into each other in the dark - oops!

[8:52:46 AM] Peter Johnson-Lenz: ooof, oops sorry

[8:53:02 AM] Trudy Johnson-Lenz: so you mean i can undangle for up to an hour?!? awesome

[8:53:12 AM] Phil Wolff: heh!

[8:53:44 AM] J Clark: it's a little wave-like in that regard. Amusing

[8:53:53 AM] J Clark: Hi Phil

[8:54:11 AM] Jerry Michalski | SF: maybe wave will b able to do all this soon

[8:54:13 AM] Jerry Michalski | SF: sure hope so

[8:54:18 AM] Jerry Michalski | SF: kinda hard patching it together

[8:54:27 AM] Peter Johnson-Lenz: my dongle is dangerously entangled with my dogma, how do I untangle

[8:54:32 AM] Phil Wolff: Hi! good to see you here.

[8:54:50 AM | Edited 8:55:11 AM] J Clark: woiuld love to test that w Ribbit's gadget in a wave. If anyone's interested...

[8:55:04 AM] Jerry Michalski | SF: I installed it, haven't tried it

[8:55:06 AM] Jerry Michalski | SF: later?

[8:55:11 AM] Peter Johnson-Lenz: ribbet's gadget?

[8:55:33 AM] J Clark: it's one that can be added to your toys bar

[8:56:00 AM] Peter Johnson-Lenz: I gather we are here before call time to practice, but I don't know what to practice

[8:56:07 AM] *** Jerry Michalski | SF added georgepor ***

[8:56:12 AM] Peter Johnson-Lenz: My typing is improving from practice

[8:56:13 AM] J Clark: breathing in?

[8:56:23 AM] Jerry Michalski | SF: I'm gonna start the audio now

[8:56:25 AM] Jerry Michalski | SF: here

[8:56:33 AM] *** Conference call, duration 58:52 ***

[8:56:53 AM] Peter Johnson-Lenz: hi george

[8:57:00 AM] J Clark: mute option in call menu

[8:57:55 AM] George Pór: hello Peter, it's good "see" you!

[8:58:33 AM] J Clark: nice to know mute works (call menu)

[8:58:33 AM] Peter Johnson-Lenz: P+T are sharing a mike so I am in the call even though Skype doesn't list me as being so

[8:58:42 AM] David Hodgson: and hello George it is good to see you ;)

[8:58:55 AM] J Clark: wow, that's very clear.

[8:58:55 AM] George Pór: likewise!

[8:58:56 AM] Peter Johnson-Lenz: Wink! to george

[8:59:34 AM] J Clark: Jer, bottom of skype along the edge?

[8:59:41 AM] J Clark: keypad

[8:59:42 AM] Peter Johnson-Lenz: how did she get here?

[8:59:43 AM] J Clark: there you go

[8:59:46 AM] Trudy Johnson-Lenz: she's always *so* friendly with her elevator announcer voice

[8:59:54 AM] Peter Johnson-Lenz: hi Judi

[9:00:25 AM] George Pór: hello Trudy! (F)

[9:00:56 AM] Jerry Michalski | SF: This call will be recorded. If you decline to be recorded please end the call.

[9:00:57 AM] J Clark: for yi-tan anyway. Apparently not for this one!

[9:00:59 AM] Trudy Johnson-Lenz: George, wonderful to see you -- and *love* the flower. thanks!

[9:01:16 AM] Trudy Johnson-Lenz: we're blooming again, so grateful and happy to say

[9:01:28 AM] J Clark: YAY! (sun)

[9:01:29 AM] George Pór: oh, it

[9:01:37 AM] George Pór: it is good to hear!

[9:02:07 AM] Trudy Johnson-Lenz: hey ken!

[9:02:14 AM] *** Jerry Michalski | SF added William L (Bill) Anderson ***

[9:02:27 AM] Peter Johnson-Lenz: I hear better after I remove the earwax

[9:02:27 AM] J Clark: so many buddies, so many tools

[9:02:38 AM] J Clark: eew

[9:02:42 AM] Trudy Johnson-Lenz: ken, recently met carol placer in portland. we all said nice things bout you

[9:02:44 AM] Elizabeth Crouch: thanks for inviting me Jerry

[9:03:11 AM] Jerry Michalski | SF: bill?

[9:03:19 AM] William L (Bill) Anderson: yes

[9:03:30 AM] Phil Wolff: if you're not talking, it's not a bad idea to Mute your skype.

[9:03:56 AM] Peter Johnson-Lenz: Judy, I wonder if it we can accrue enough buddies and tools to swamp ourselves

[9:04:29 AM] Peter Johnson-Lenz: what an odd paradox. it's more important to mute when you are NOT talking!

[9:04:37 AM] J Clark: yes, I have data that indicates we can!

[9:04:43 AM] *** Jerry Michalski | SF added twcken ***

[9:05:00 AM] *** Jerry Michalski | SF added davepollard ***

[9:05:36 AM] Peter Johnson-Lenz: I'd like to know more about and perhaps see or play with your data, Judy. I assume you know about the research that says too many choices makes us sick

[9:05:48 AM] William L (Bill) Anderson: try Bill

[9:06:21 AM] Peter Johnson-Lenz: Hello Dave Pollard, pleasure to make your acquaintance after many years of being inspired by your writings

[9:06:33 AM] David Hodgson: agreed

[9:06:36 AM] Dave Pollard: thanks peter

[9:06:42 AM] Peter Johnson-Lenz: hi Bill A.

[9:06:47 AM] *** J Clark has changed the conversation topic to "EDFix" ***

[9:06:49 AM] Ken Homer: Hello P+T! Been a long time - I hope you are both well

[9:06:51 AM] William L (Bill) Anderson: hey Peter

[9:06:54 AM] Peter Johnson-Lenz: Hi Ken H

[9:06:58 AM] William L (Bill) Anderson: & Trudy

[9:07:08 AM] Elizabeth Crouch: my skype learning curve activated ... I may be on mute the entire time ... ok with me! listening/learning ... funny to watch all the pencils madly working :D

[9:07:09 AM] Peter Johnson-Lenz: EDF

[9:07:21 AM] *** Jerry Michalski | SF added gblnetwkr ***

[9:07:30 AM] Dave Pollard: lots of distortion on jerry's voice

[9:07:41 AM] Peter Johnson-Lenz: you should see his brain!

[9:07:42 AM] George Pór: Environmental DEfense Fund

[9:07:57 AM] J Clark: he's sounding clear to me. Dave, are you on a mobile?

[9:08:35 AM] Ken Homer: I'm getting a lot of distortion too. Now listening on dial in

[9:08:38 AM] Doug Neal: hmmm, surprising distortion via skype

[9:08:39 AM] George Pór: EDF Innovation Exchange

[9:08:45 AM] Elizabeth Crouch: clear to me

[9:08:45 AM] David Hodgson: fine for me

[9:08:53 AM] William L (Bill) Anderson: distortion for me also

[9:09:18 AM] Dave Pollard: unusual distortion, and i'm muted

[9:09:44 AM] Ken Homer: Actually, can't hear very well on dial in either - both skype and cell are muted

[9:09:53 AM] William L (Bill) Anderson: still a good deal of echo; and i'm muted

[9:09:54 AM] Peter Johnson-Lenz: who is here from EDF?

[9:09:54 AM] Phil Wolff: tip to improve your Skype performance: turn off Outlook (and anything else consuming CPU or bandwidth)

[9:10:05 AM] David Hodgson: Dave Witzel is meant to be

[9:10:08 AM] David Hodgson: ;)

[9:10:16 AM] J Clark: good tip, thx Phil

[9:10:38 AM] George Pór: Sustainability Commons

[9:10:47 AM] William L (Bill) Anderson: "the" commons OR "a" commons

[9:11:04 AM] Phil Wolff: Is there a "Comedy of the Commons"?

[9:11:18 AM] David Hodgson: http://onthecommons.org/

[9:11:34 AM] George Pór: http://www.global-commons.net/

[9:11:45 AM] Elizabeth Crouch: Do you know the Coaching Commons? http://www.coachingcommons.org Big tent

[9:11:51 AM] George Pór: http://www.coalition-global-commons.org/

[9:12:00 AM] Trudy Johnson-Lenz: From the State of the Commons Report:

In this report we use the terms commons, common assets, common property and common wealth. They all refer to the same thing in slightly different ways.

COMMONS is the generic term. It embraces all the creations of nature and society that we inherit jointly and freely, and hold in trust for future generations.

COMMON ASSETS are those parts of the commons that have a value in the market. Radio airwaves are a common asset, as are timber and minerals on publics lands. So, increasingly, are air and water.

COMMON PROPERTY refers to a class of human-made rights that lies somewhere between private property and state property. Examples include conservation easements held by land trusts, Alaskans' right to dividends from the Alaska Permanent Fund, and everyone's right to waterfront access.

COMMON WEALTH refers to the monetary and non-monetary values of the commons in supporting life and well-being. Like stockholders' equity in a corporation, it may increase or decrease from year to year depending on how well the commons is managed.

[9:12:08 AM] George Pór: http://www.wiserearth.org/group/commonsgroup

[9:13:18 AM] Phil Wolff: "Tomorrow's call is with Dave Witzel of the Environmental Defense Fund's Innovation Exchange (which I'll abbreviate EDFix). Dave and I will normally hold the EDFix calls on the 2nd and 4th Mondays of every month at 9am Pacific.

For tomorrow's debut call -- a special event to kick off the series -- we'll be talking about the meaning of The Commons, particularly the many different commons that coexist and overlap, with a goal of defining a "Sustainability Commons" over several calls. Our guests for this debut will be Dave Pollard, Peter and Trudy Johnson-Lenz, David Hodgson and Kenoli Oleari. All of them bring wonderful depth and different perspectives to the topic at hand.

We will build on the idea of a Sustainability Commons for several calls, diving deeper and following what we learn from you, as well.

And yes, if you're counting your Mondays, the next EDFix call will be next Monday, Nov. 23, when we'll talk with the author Andrew Winston about his book, Green Recovery."

[9:13:47 AM] George Pór: State of the Commons Report (2004) http://onthecommons.org/

[9:14:21 AM] Trudy Johnson-Lenz: State of the Commons

http://onthecommons.org/content.php?id=1548

The State of the Commons is an introduction to the commons and its distinct dynamics. As joint owners of a wide variety of common assets, we believe that we have an obligation to do what any responsible owner should do: conduct an audit. Take inventory of the assets that belong to us, and assess their value and how well they are being managed. "Download":media/pdf/original/stateofthecommons.pdf Also available in Spanish. "Download":media/pdf/original/FotC_Report_Espanol.pdf

[9:14:41 AM] Trudy Johnson-Lenz: The Commons Rising

http://onthecommons.org/content.php?id=1547

Our belief is that, with much nurturance and support, a vibrant commons sector can, in time, protect nature, reduce inequality among humans, and improve the quality of life for rich and poor alike. Moreover, we believe that sector can grow from the seeds we see today. The purpose of this report is thus two-fold: first, to celebrate the seeds that are already emerging, and second, to suggest how, taken together and multiplied, they can grow into something powerful enough to change the world.

[9:15:16 AM] Trudy Johnson-Lenz: Elinor Ostrom's whiteboard talk on managing the commons:

[9:15:18 AM] Trudy Johnson-Lenz: http://community.cengage.com/GECResource/blogs/gec_blog/archive/2009/10/12/managing-shared-resources-elinor-ostrom-and-quot-going-beyond-the-tragedy-of-the-commons-quot.aspx

[9:15:25 AM] J Clark: a well-documented call, will take a second (third) pass to take it all in

[9:15:45 AM] Jerry Michalski | SF: thanks, everyone!

[9:15:46 AM] J Clark: wishing I had some of these links before the call

[9:15:55 AM] David Hodgson: http://capitalism3.com/ Peter Barnes - Capitalism 3.0 - a guide to reclaiming the commons

[9:16:26 AM] Jerry Michalski | SF: ah, that's why we'll have more calls

[9:16:45 AM] Trudy Johnson-Lenz: The Science Commons is a new variant of Creative Commons licenses.

[9:16:55 AM] Trudy Johnson-Lenz: http://sciencecommons.org

[9:17:28 AM] George Pór: > a well-documented call, will take a second (third) pass to take it all in <-- exactly! we need to get a trasncript and harvest it for patterns we may not see in the sequentiality of real-time talk

[9:17:39 AM] Peter Johnson-Lenz: Yes. Everything is in the commons

[9:17:49 AM] William L (Bill) Anderson: Everything?

[9:18:27 AM] J Clark: well, not really everything yet. But all on this chat and call is recorded

[9:19:14 AM] Peter Johnson-Lenz: Yes. On one hand everything comes from nature.

[9:19:22 AM] Peter Johnson-Lenz: On the othe hand, No

[9:20:03 AM] Peter Johnson-Lenz: Many things on which our lives depend are managed by stewards

[9:20:03 AM] George Pór: will the movement of the commons move towards a planetary constitutional assembly in 2 or 3 years?

[9:20:27 AM] Peter Johnson-Lenz: Ownership is a responsibility to the commons

[9:20:31 AM] David Hodgson: i like the concept of stewardship

[9:20:39 AM] Dave Pollard: i hope jerry can hear this because i can't

[9:20:58 AM] Phil Wolff: fealty

[9:20:59 AM] William L (Bill) Anderson: Dave P - it is VERY hard to hear clearly

[9:21:26 AM] David Hodgson: sounds great still to me

[9:21:26 AM] Peter Johnson-Lenz: Your coming through here fine

[9:21:30 AM] George Pór: Jerry's talking about the ownership of stuff

[9:21:32 AM] William L (Bill) Anderson: Jerry, I hear lots of echo, words are clipped

[9:21:37 AM] J Clark: Dave P, do you have email or any Microsoft app open in the background?

[9:22:42 AM] David Hodgson: ownership is a public trust - responsibilities not just rights

[9:22:45 AM] William L (Bill) Anderson: jerry, lots of clipping can't hear you very well at all

[9:22:46 AM] Peter Johnson-Lenz: Yea dave

[9:23:29 AM] Jerry Michalski | SF: hmm, that's not good

[9:23:59 AM] J Clark: Dave, we can hear you clearly

[9:24:04 AM] Peter Johnson-Lenz: what if we all called back on the conference line

[9:24:15 AM] George Pór: stone age economics

[9:24:21 AM] Peter Johnson-Lenz: stone age phone calls

[9:24:52 AM] Dave Pollard: indigenous view of the commons -- http://wo.ala.org/tce/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/ip-and-the-commons.pdf

[9:25:06 AM] J Clark: curious to know if people having problems are on one of the phone bridges. My call is clear, I'm on skype. For later...

[9:25:36 AM] Ken Homer: Languaging for indigenous - We Are Earth Walking As People

[9:26:49 AM] Ken Homer: Where does the idea of the commons breakdown? What causes the breakdowns?

[9:27:25 AM] George Pór: is anybody interested in issues related to stewarding the *knowledge* commons?

[9:27:35 AM] J Clark: guessing: when bad players/acts effectively intervene?

[9:28:53 AM] Trudy Johnson-Lenz: From the State of the Commons Report:

[9:28:56 AM] Trudy Johnson-Lenz: As with private trusts, the goal of commons management is to preserve assets and share benefits. Hence, the basic principles of commons management are similar to those of private trusts.

Commons managers must, first and foremost, protect shared assets for the long term. They must also assure that the benefits flowing from the assets are widely shared.

Beyond these basic principles, specific rules for commons management vary from one commons to another. Broadly speaking, they depend on the level of use society wishes to allow or encourage.

If a commons needs to be off limits to all but the most non-invasive use -- a wilderness area, for example -- the guiding rule is, "No trespassing."

If a commons has no inherent limits on use -- like the Internet or the cultural commons -- the guiding rule is, "The more the merrier." Use should be as free as possible, and management's main job should be to minimize private toll booths.

If a commons can be used up to, but not beyond, some physical threshold -- fisheries, aquifers and the atmosphere are examples -- management's job is to set and enforce sustainable use limits. In conomic terms, its challenge is to live off income without diminishing capital.

[9:29:08 AM] J Clark: and when nature of "commons" is reframed. Examples: property ownership beliefs on native culture, religious invasions...

[9:29:59 AM] Dave Pollard: the idea of stewardship instead of collective ownership is essential to the indigenous understanding of commons

[9:29:59 AM] Peter Johnson-Lenz: some knowledge and some natural resources are translocal

[9:30:28 AM] Peter Johnson-Lenz: climate change is a threat to a translocal/global commons

[9:30:40 AM] Trudy Johnson-Lenz: "If nature made any thing less susceptible than all others of exclusive property, it is the thinking power of an idea." -- Thomas Jefferson

[9:31:06 AM] J Clark: yes, reframing. The power of an idea.

[9:31:26 AM] George Pór: Jefferson is cool!

[9:32:00 AM] Phil Wolff: I wonder if digital natives share common values with stone age natives.

[9:32:16 AM] J Clark: Problem: current capitalist model doesn't take a long term view. It's all about taking out.

[9:32:40 AM] George Pór: right, let's not idealize the stone age values...

[9:32:51 AM] William L (Bill) Anderson: Phil, I think it's contextual. In some sciences the younger generation is much more open with their research work than has been the practice.

[9:32:54 AM] David Hodgson: monoculture = reduction in diversity

[9:33:07 AM] David Hodgson: we need to encourage diversity

[9:33:21 AM] Peter Johnson-Lenz: I agree with Lessig that culture (music, imagery, ideas) becomes part of our biological self (neuronally embedded). I don't like anybody, even the writer or artist, and certainly not a corporation, owning the stuff in my head.

[9:33:35 AM] J Clark: so how to combine simplicity of stone age values with digital abundance and commons needs?

[9:34:08 AM] George Pór: > Problem: current capitalist model doesn't take a long term view. It's all about taking out <-- hence it is reducing the self-healing capacity of the global system

[9:34:29 AM] Phil Wolff: The reason enivronmental media has earned kudos since Rachel Carson is they increase visibility into the existence and state of the environmental commons.

[9:34:39 AM] Peter Johnson-Lenz: Bateson asked where does mind end? My brain, my hand, or the end of the stick touching the ground, or.,...

[9:35:32 AM] Phil Wolff: Suggestion: distinguish between resource extraction businesses from capitalism in general. people who sing in nighclubs for a living are also capitalists.

[9:35:45 AM] Trudy Johnson-Lenz: Peter Barnes:

[9:36:15 AM] George Pór: personal kaizen

[9:36:23 AM] J Clark: personal kanban

[9:36:34 AM] Trudy Johnson-Lenz: "The commons means simply: Things we share, places we share, systems we share, ideas we share, culture we share." -- Peter Barnes

[9:36:35 AM] David Hodgson: how do we maximize global wellbeing whilst minimizing resource throughput?

[9:36:39 AM] Jerry Michalski | SF: friend Jim Benson has become a personal kaizen guru online :)

[9:36:47 AM] Jerry Michalski | SF: trudy, can you mute yr mike?

[9:37:05 AM] Trudy Johnson-Lenz: both of our mikes are muted

[9:37:09 AM] Dave Pollard: is it more education we need or just the worldview that we have that needs to change?

[9:37:26 AM] George Pór: or both

[9:37:32 AM] William L (Bill) Anderson: Dave, I think we need better education and learning practices

[9:37:55 AM] William L (Bill) Anderson: As well as constructing a more adaptive worldview

[9:37:58 AM] George Pór: commons-based learning practices

[9:37:58 AM | Edited 9:38:18 AM] Phil Wolff: are we concerned in this call about the conversation about the sustainability commons, or the sustainability commons itself?

[9:38:06 AM] J Clark: http://personalkanban.com/ (Jim Benson is champion of personal kanban)

[9:38:23 AM] David Hodgson: humans

[9:38:33 AM] Trudy Johnson-Lenz: Sustainability Commons? Is that separate from The Commons? What's being sustained? For whom?

[9:38:38 AM] William L (Bill) Anderson: sumers - like the Sumerians ?

[9:38:42 AM] Dave Pollard: our worldview is 'informed' by 'scarcity', whereas prehistoric and indigenous cultures' worldviews are 'infomed' by 'abundance' -- and our use of the word 'commons' is informed by that worldview

[9:39:07 AM] William L (Bill) Anderson: Dave Pollard: ++ re abundance/scarcity

[9:39:21 AM] David Hodgson: worldview shift: mechanistic paradigm -> organic paradigm

[9:39:37 AM] Peter Johnson-Lenz: We need to embed sustainable values in the incentives and constraints of our organizing institutions that shape our self-interest for the common good rather than how we incent unrestrained greed now.

[9:39:44 AM] David Hodgson: we don't see gaia for what it is + see the abundance

[9:40:26 AM] J Clark: David H, how to change a worldview of those businesses that are oriented on mechanistic flow?

[9:40:28 AM] William L (Bill) Anderson: Bohm - good quantum mechanic as well

[9:40:51 AM] David Hodgson: bohm + krishnamurti http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-fJMGASBqE

[9:41:17 AM] Phil Wolff: One Small Step Can Change Your Life: The Kaizen Way

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0761129235?ie=UTF8&tag=aklogapart-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0761129235

[9:41:33 AM] Dave Pollard: thanks so much everyone for this thread... really helped me keep up when i couldn't hear what was being said -- this thread is a 'commons' of sorts :)

[9:41:41 AM] David Hodgson: J Clark: i think the worldview is shifting

[9:42:14 AM] J Clark: wondering how to assist that shift.

[9:42:36 AM] Dave Pollard: can we define what 'commons' means without using terms like 'property' and 'ownership'?

[9:43:21 AM] Phil Wolff: The Thriving Commons.

[9:43:27 AM] Peter Johnson-Lenz: Yes, Dave -- "The commons means simply: Things we share, places we share, systems we share, ideas we share, culture we share." -- Peter Barnes

[9:43:31 AM] David Hodgson: J Clark: exploring and promoting the new paradigm

[9:43:40 AM] Trudy Johnson-Lenz: Factory e Farm:

http://www.factorefarm.org

Our aim is the full integration of small-scale, adaptable manufacturing with sustainable agriculture to produce the Resilient Community Construction Set prototyped in two years as a completely open source, self-replicating package so that you can build it yourself. People will be able to survive and thrive with a high quality of life that is not dependent on global supply chains, human exploitation, and environmental degradation.

[9:43:52 AM] David Hodgson: J Clark: finding key influencers, diffusion of innovation

[9:43:53 AM] Peter Johnson-Lenz: Yes, Dave, "The commons means simply: Things we share, places we share, systems we share, ideas we share, culture we share." -- Peter Barnes

[9:44:23 AM] Ken Homer: Hi Duri, good to hear your voice!

[9:44:32 AM] David Hodgson: http://stwr.org/

[9:44:42 AM] Jerry Michalski | SF: James Killikan?

[9:44:44 AM] Jerry Michalski | SF: sp?

[9:44:47 AM] David Hodgson: http://shareable.net/

[9:45:42 AM] Dave Pollard: is the 'commons' an emergent property of the ecosystem?

[9:45:52 AM] Ken Homer: Another thinker with some good ideas (from a different perspective) is Robert Kegan's In Over Our Heads and his five orders of consciousness.

[9:45:54 AM] Phil Wolff: Is the sustainable commons problem an information problem (definition, awareness) or is there something wrong with the commons itself?

[9:46:20 AM] Peter Johnson-Lenz: Co-intelligence is a living system property

[9:46:23 AM] J Clark: significant challenge: how to discourage bad actors who have disproportionate gain from gaming the system?

[9:46:33 AM] William L (Bill) Anderson: "connected" intelligence is a better term

[9:46:48 AM] David Hodgson: social intelligence? spiritual intelligence?

[9:46:52 AM] Ken Homer: We need more verbs and fewer nouns: change "collective intelligence" to collective intelligencing"

[9:47:11 AM] Phil Wolff: Thriving Commons should be a verb, not a noun. Active, not passive or reactive.

[9:47:18 AM] Peter Johnson-Lenz: Judi, only way is to grow social institutions that incent & constrain

[9:47:22 AM] J Clark: careful: religious/spiritual "wisdom" is not a universal guiding force

[9:47:28 AM] Dave Pollard: agree bill -- it's vanity to think we have a 'collected' intelligence, it's a 'connected' intelligence

[9:47:29 AM] Ken Homer: Or collecting intelligence for better languageing

[9:48:31 AM] Peter Johnson-Lenz: what is EDF looking for? I'd appreciate something written about their aspirations? challenges?

9:48:35 AM] George Pór: I'd like to invite anybody interested to a meta-conversation about augmenting the collective intelligence and wisdom of the ecosystem of commons-related initiatives - pls drop me a line george [AT] Community-Intelligence [DOT] com

[9:48:41 AM] Phil Wolff: I also wonder if a thriving commons has the capacity to defend itself. to build virtuous feedback loops that help it renew, grow, and propagate.

[9:48:45 AM] Dave Pollard: thank you as always, jerry, i learned so much in this 45 minutes, amazing

[9:48:50 AM] David Hodgson: depends on how one defines 'spiritual' - i am using it in the sense of being interconnected with the universal flow - knowing that one is an element in a larger system

[9:49:19 AM] George Pór: i like that!

[9:49:22 AM] Dave Pollard: i like that def david h

[9:49:29 AM] David Hodgson: it is ken homers

[9:49:30 AM] David Hodgson: ;)

[9:49:38 AM] David Hodgson: i borrowed it ..

[9:49:55 AM] Ken Homer: Thanks - it is actually Ken Wilber's - I stole it.

[9:49:58 AM] David Hodgson: but now it is in the commons

[9:50:06 AM] Dave Pollard: damn i bow down to jerry -- his ability to synthesize all this on the fly

[9:50:21 AM] George Pór: awesome

[9:50:38 AM] Ken Homer: Always a stunning thing to listen to Jerry summarize a call!

[9:50:49 AM] Peter Johnson-Lenz: Ken the knowledge thief

[9:51:23 AM] Peter Johnson-Lenz: Jerry is unique -- I love his summaries

[9:51:44 AM] Ken Homer: Now the indigenous need to teach the industrial peoples a whole "old" language!

[9:52:06 AM] Ken Homer: You know what they say, good artists borrow, great ones steal!

[9:52:28 AM] Peter Johnson-Lenz: nice spin Ken

[9:52:53 AM] Phil Wolff: King Leopold's Ghost: A Story of Greed, Terror, and Heroism in Colonial Africa

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0618001905?ie=UTF8&tag=aklogapart-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0618001905

[9:53:26 AM] Peter Johnson-Lenz: thank you everyone for all the links and quotes/paraphrases in this chat

[9:53:51 AM] David Hodgson: our concept of progress tends to moving away from the holistic view, whereas we have to move back towards a holistic understanding

[9:54:04 AM] David Hodgson: hmm not move back

[9:54:15 AM] David Hodgson: transcend and be able to hold both simultaneously

[9:54:34 AM] Peter Johnson-Lenz: YEA JERRY! THANK YOU

[9:54:40 AM] J Clark: this is a rather "progressive" agenda. not commonly practiced, wisdom not all agreed

[9:54:47 AM] William L (Bill) Anderson: david h - not so much transcend as incorporate both

[9:54:49 AM] Phil Wolff: sustainability and the thriving commons, or "Divided We Fall short" http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=55635782836&topic=7800

[9:54:54 AM] David Hodgson: thank you Jerry

[9:54:58 AM] Ken Homer: Amazing! Thank you all so much and thanks Jerry for bringing us together!

[9:55:08 AM] Trudy Johnson-Lenz: deep bows of thanks, everybody!

[9:55:22 AM] David Hodgson: good to 'meet' you all

[9:55:25 AM] Elizabeth Crouch: Huge thanks --

[9:55:25 AM] George Pór: (bow)

[9:55:30 AM] *** Call ended ***

[9:55:46 AM] Jerry Michalski | SF: thanks, everyone!

[9:55:54 AM] Jerry Michalski | SF: is there an easy way to archive this chat off skype?

[9:56:04 AM] David Hodgson: ithere should be

[9:56:14 AM] George Pór: Jerry, how can we get your summary transcribed?

[9:56:17 AM] Peter Johnson-Lenz: yes, select, copy, paste

[9:56:30 AM] Dave Pollard: etymology of 'commons': from PIE "together change" :)

[9:56:41 AM] Peter Johnson-Lenz: someone has to transcribe J's summary

[9:56:51 AM] Peter Johnson-Lenz: what's PIE

[9:57:02 AM] David Hodgson: Jerry: file - save as (?)

[9:57:31 AM] Peter Johnson-Lenz: don't see a save button/menu choice

[9:57:40 AM] J Clark: in FILE menu

[9:57:56 AM] Jerry Michalski | SF: but I don't see a file menu... :)

[9:57:57 AM] Peter Johnson-Lenz: PIE = Proto Indo European?

[9:58:00 AM] George Pór: > if you don't mind the chat being in public I'll post it on my wiki <-- pls cange the @ in my email to "at"

[9:58:20 AM] J Clark: I will email. Can't send a file to the group

[9:59:42 AM] Jerry Michalski | SF: thanks, judi!

[10:00:04 AM] Peter Johnson-Lenz: Bill, let us know if/when you put it on your wiki, you wikid devil, you

[10:00:05 AM] J Clark: did that work?

[10:00:20 AM] William L (Bill) Anderson: not for me

[10:00:26 AM] Peter Johnson-Lenz: did not work, Judi, my chat says "Sending failed" in red

[10:01:00 AM] J Clark: perhaps it doesn't transfer if I'm not on your list. (that's a prefs choice)

[10:02:36 AM] William L (Bill) Anderson: All right folks. I will post on a wiki with minimal clean up. and will make remove "@" signs from e-mails.

[10:03:08 AM] George Pór: thanks a lot Bill!

[10:03:13 AM] Peter Johnson-Lenz: thanks in advance, Bill

[10:03:24 AM] Dave Pollard: peter -- yes i think that's what PIE means

[10:05:07 AM] George Pór: what a good surprise to be with old and new friends in the same chat about commons - feels like Emergence is pulling us together...

[10:05:44 AM] J Clark: I wonder if many of us on this call are working on different emergence projects?

[10:05:57 AM] Phil Wolff: Are there people who oppose the idea of the commons? A contrarian economist, maybe?

[10:06:07 AM] J Clark: RIAA?

[10:06:13 AM] Jerry Michalski | SF: judi, yr file came thru clean for me

[10:06:16 AM] Jerry Michalski | SF: tx bill, too

[10:06:17 AM] Peter Johnson-Lenz: Duri, we've been together all along, just noticing it now

[10:06:18 AM] David Hodgson: i accidentally had lunch with james galbraith a couple of weeks ago

[10:06:32 AM] David Hodgson: and he was _very_ miffed that Ostrom had won the prize ;)

[10:06:39 AM] Jerry Michalski | SF: why?

[10:06:59 AM] David Hodgson: partly because she isn't a _real_ economist

[10:07:42 AM] Peter Johnson-Lenz: real economists think there is this abstraction called the economy

[10:07:51 AM] David Hodgson: but i got the sense that he didn't see the commons

[10:08:07 AM] David Hodgson: the commons is a holistic frame

[10:08:10 AM] David Hodgson: it is a relational frame

[10:08:11 AM] William L (Bill) Anderson: Peter JL: you don't think that they're really real economists then do you?

[10:08:18 AM] Peter Johnson-Lenz: the commons is anathema to the economy

[10:08:30 AM] Dave Pollard: j c -- the concept of emergence is 'emerging' everywhere in what i'm doing -- here in san jose listening to dave snowden talk about that in sense of coping with complex adaptive systems

[10:08:35 AM] Jerry Michalski | SF: all these words are great to mess with

[10:08:42 AM] George Pór: > we've been together all along, just noticing it no <-- Indeed. From the perspective of "prior unity" we are less evolving towards something, more like gradually noticing how we have always been there...

[10:08:46 AM] David Hodgson: DaveP - you are in the bay area at the moment?

[10:08:50 AM] Jerry Michalski | SF: economy, commons, sustainability, resources, economics...

[10:08:52 AM] J Clark: Jerry, is there an overview of your call series?

[10:08:52 AM] Dave Pollard: the commons is anathema to the 'industrial growth' economy but not the 'natural' economy

[10:09:04 AM] Jerry Michalski | SF: judi, not yet

[10:09:13 AM] Peter Johnson-Lenz: no, "real economist" is an abstration. Thanks for reminding me that they are at the end of my stick.

[10:09:16 AM] J Clark: Dave P, yes, this is what I was asking about earlier

[10:09:17 AM] Jerry Michalski | SF: dave & I will be using the EDFix blog for most of this

[10:09:49 AM] Phil Wolff: EDFix listserv?

[10:10:40 AM] Peter Johnson-Lenz: natural economy is an oxymoron in common parlance, but redundant in a commons world

[10:11:56 AM] Phil Wolff: Would it make sense to have a Bay Area EDFix lunch once a month after the call?

[10:12:13 AM] Jerry Michalski | SF: ooo, phil, that's a nice idea

[10:12:25 AM] Jerry Michalski | SF: Dave Witzel is in DC

[10:13:41 AM] George Pór: guys, I'm enjoying your company *and* have to return to my work - big (hug)  to all!

[10:15:01 AM] Ken Homer: Three primary conversations/dialogues that transcend time and culture (in other words no matter when or where you are born, these meta-conversations will be going on) Human-Earth relationship - ecology/economy - the management of the household in the original Greek. The Human-Human conversation which centers on notions of justice and society. And the Human-Divine (or transcendent) conversation - dealing with the creation of meaning. Virtually every culture studied has deep "spiritual/religious" artifacts and practices. My take is that people go wrong when they anchor their "center of gravity for orienting to life" in one or the other of these relationships and make the other two subservient to it. I assert a more productive move is to find ways to harmonize the three of them so that they will continue into a very long and fullfulling future for humanity...

[10:15:50 AM] Jerry Michalski | SF: wonderful to have you all gathered here. thank you for joining!!

[10:16:00 AM] Jerry Michalski | SF: we'll turn this lovely stew into something gourmet

[10:16:51 AM] Dave Pollard: interesting to have a discussion on something when thoughts are just forming... more questions than answers, and no preconceptions about 'what to do'

[10:17:07 AM] Jerry Michalski | SF: love that territory, yes

[10:17:38 AM] William L (Bill) Anderson: I think it was Picasso who said "Computers are useless, they only give answers."

[10:18:18 AM] Ken Homer: re: more questions than answers... I think it was Richard Feynman who said: Every answer creates an ever expanding frontier of ignorance...

[10:18:40 AM] Dave Pollard: at an international research conference 2 days ago, when i asked the group what defined great research, their collective definition was "work that asks important questions".

[10:19:00 AM] Dave Pollard: 2 years ago... not 2 days.... i need coffee

[10:19:19 AM] Ken Homer: And it was Picasso who said: If there were only one truth, you couldn't paint a 100 canvases on the same theme

[10:20:59 AM] Ken Homer: Gotta run!

[10:21:53 AM] Peter Johnson-Lenz: last call for chats.